Jan 8, 2004

Given the strong opposition to this policy from Republicans (i.e. NRO), and some similar opposition from Democrats, I find it very hard to look at this proposal as anything more than a Campaign topic: it's something that they never really expect or want to pass, but they needed to say it anyways in order to look like they really do care about Hispanic Americans.

Hopefully, enough people will see right through this policy ploy to realize that following Bush will get the immigrant community in this country no where.

Joseph Balta:

I agree. If President Bush was going to give them amnesty, then that is what he should have done. What he has done is harm them. If they are well disguised, it would not be in their best interest to let theirself be known so there would be a possibility of being thrown out of the country in three years. There is no guarantee of amnesty. This is an opening for slave labor for industry and corporations; and must be strongly protested by any person with democratic views. I am certain that any Republican is feigning dislike for this policy, or is not a true Republican.

"Gez Louise," Once again where is the Democratic Party on this one?? Remember when Gray Davis wanted to allow Drivers license for illegal immigrants? Wow, the screaming began! What happened to our National Security worry? I bet Bush is thinking twice about the Driver license's,cuz how will they get there to clean his rich buddies toliets, or pick vegetable's for some "Republican" owned Business??

I am a stout Democrat and I'm all for it!

If they are not supposed to be here then we can ship them out under this new plan. And if they ARE supposed to be here then they have a chance to follow U.S. Law and go through the normal process while everyone else. They will even get to collect their social security in their Home Countries.

This Country is not a MECCA for the World and its problem children. Running away from your problems never solves anything, and we are over-populated to begin with. If controls are not put in place now to make sure these people return where they came from then it would be impossible in the future to recover. For the most part these illegals are a drain on our economy, because they often collect against programs they shouldn't be. I have no sympathy.

I just wish the President would make passing the TOEFL a requirement for this Program.

I am a stout Democrat and I'm all for it!

If they are not supposed to be here then we can ship them out under this new plan. And if they ARE supposed to be here then they have a chance to follow U.S. Law and go through the normal process while everyone else. They will even get to collect their social security in their Home Countries.

This Country is not a MECCA for the World and its problem children. Running away from your problems never solves anything, and we are over-populated to begin with. If controls are not put in place now to make sure these people return where they came from then it would be impossible in the future to recover. For the most part these illegals are a drain on our economy, because they often collect against programs they shouldn't be. I have no sympathy, for illegals when so many countless others do what they are supposed to do and honor the law, and still suffer.

I just wish the President would make passing the TOEFL a requirement for this Program.

I am a stout Democrat and I'm all for it!

If they are not supposed to be here then we can ship them out under this new plan. And if they ARE supposed to be here then they have a chance to follow U.S. Law and go through the normal process while everyone else. They will even get to collect their social security in their Home Countries.

This Country is not a MECCA for the World and its problem children. Running away from your problems never solves anything, and we are over-populated to begin with. If controls are not put in place now to make sure these people return where they came from then it would be impossible in the future to recover. For the most part these illegals are a drain on our economy, because they often collect against programs they shouldn't be. I have no sympathy, for illegals when so many countless others do what they are supposed to do and honor the law, and still suffer.

I just wish the President would make passing the TOEFL a requirement for this Program.

The only ones that are praising this are business executives. They are planning on using this present to replace American workers with lower paid "Guest Workers". This is not so much a gift to Hispanics as it is a gift to businesses trying to destroy unions and the American Middle Class. Just think, they won't have to move their factories abroad anymore, they'll just replace everyone.

I don't mean to sound heartless. It is just that if you think of the mentality of one who would abandon their own country, as if they are the only one suffering, and then to come here and abuse our system, infringing upon those who have followed our law. Often, despite their work effort, these people obtain licenses and fictitious Identification, cause accidents, and even register to vote!

You would think all of these other countries would be empty ghost towns. What makes one person more deserving over the other? This is why we have screening programs. And often, these people don't even think enough of their homelands to return and give back some of the benefits they derive to their fellow countrymen. If American did such a thing, it would be called unpatriotic, and I argue these immigrants are the same.

Eventually, they have to learn to take charge of their own lives and their own destinies, even if it is by way of Revolution!

Captain Bill:

These people are not highly educated, and so there is no way that they can replace the Middle Class anytime soon.

Further, they are already here. Anyone who has ever had to stay late at work knows that at about 9:00PM you start to smell the vinegar and water mix that these illegals use to clean the corporate centers. They often cannot speak English, and you have to put bright orange stickers that say RUBBISH, PLEASE HANDLE AS GARBAGE, in Polski or Spanish, or Russian or Czech, on oversized items you want thrown away.

I agree it helps Big Business to come into compliance. Also, the Corporation have now been given a MANDATE as Employers. I am sure they receive some funding. I would also expect some kind of Database to be started with American Employees Information that is searchable, and with the patriot act, if the U.S. Employee Database is abused you might end up with another can of worms.

This has slavery written all over it: the old Calhoun adage that 'sure we treat 'em bad but look how much better off they are here than where they came from'. Disgusting symptom of the United States Incorporated, Ltd's addiction to cheap labor, cheap everything except the profits that get shoveled off shore, not only draining the nation of jobs needed by Americans, but siphoning off any resources for our national tax revenues that would/could be used to eleviate the suffering of our now chronically unemployed citizens.

Cynical question I saw elsewhere on a blog (this one?) - will these newly employed immigrants (who are already heading to the border with good faith shouts of "Bush passed the law so we're legal!) be counted against the current horrible 5.95% unemployment? I can hear Bush now - if those darn senators and congressmen hadn't intervened we'd have had hundreds of thousands of new employees! Disgusting, big time.

Hell no, business isn't all for this. They'd rather hire illegals and pay them starvation wages, like they do now. This whole thing is a load of crap, designed to divert people's attention from things like, oh, the fact that the WMD team has been removed from Iraq without finding diddly, or that Americans were kicked out of Kuwait over the holidays (the media were told that the sudden and unexpected arrival home of National Guard troops was a "surprise Christmas holiday." Yeah, right.)

Sorry if I sound jaded, and I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I don't trust Shrub and his cronies as far as I can throw 'em, and I guarantee you this is a diversionary ploy.

Let's not get caught looking out the window when we should be paying attention to the door!

This is Wrong. We have 8 million lawbreakers stealing jobs from Citizens. Picture this economy w/o this surplus of docile labor. Where are the packing-house jobs in the midwest? Where are the construction jobs that have always been solid middle class income. They didn't go anywhere—There's a building boom. The Labor force is now Immigrant labor which is good for material suppliers-developers and speculators——NOT contractors or workers. In 1971 carpenters made $8/hr and a nice house in Marin Co CA. cost $50K. That exact house now costs 350K and the carpenter putting it together is Maybe making $15. This doesn't help the contractor who takes on the responsibility to build the house—it leaves him/her with a crew that doesn't care and may not even show up to work. Think about it. How can you drive labor prices down? It is so simple. I now live on the border and I have seen your future. Ask ANYBODY who lives in AZ-TX-CA. Ask yourself "why don't they learn English"? The answer is "They are *pioneers* taking back *their* country for their countrymen…and that's NOT you.

This notion that illegal immigrants are less educated, therefore are less threatening to our job market is a bunch of hogwash! Must I remind you our job market, and unemployment come from all walks of life. Not all the people seeking unemployment benefits have "degrees." Furthermore this Administration is doing everything in their power to stop employers from giving overtime to employees that are willing, and are in need of the money to work. One must think these "hours" might be for illegal immigrants! Another theory that is hogwash, is that they only take jobs American's refuse to do. Illegal immigrants are notorious for working, and must under the table for dirt poor money. These company's would be forced to pay a living wage if illegal immigrants didn't take their "3rd World" pay!!!

For most of you, citizenship is an accident of birth. You did nothing to earn it, and, unless you are a wartime veteran, nothing to defend it. Get over yourselves. We managed to survive the Irish, the Italian, German, etc migration to America. Why do the doors close now? I have been a contractor, and I can tell you, it doesn't take too many days with a shitload of work to do, and all your "citizen" workers home with a hangover, to start mining the labor filed of immigrant workers. They show up, work hard, and are grateful to recieve a fair wage. Yes, some exploit them. That's the price you pay, one of the many hardships new immigrants endure. Both of my parents came here illegally, and within 20 years, educated themselves, bought property, ran businesses, and embraced this country as their own. My father spent time and money on Orphanages in Mexico, and was widely respected there. Ran for, and was elected city councilman here in the states. Most of you have no idea how lucky you are, and have no compassion for people born into a life of poverty. It sickens me.

right on Rick.

Rick, let me give you a little lesson on "American's." Many of us have been affected by the deaths of our love ones that were sent to war to "defend" us. My life as a young woman was torn apart when my brother returned home from Vietnam in total emotional shambles.It would take "pages" to describe the living hell we went through in the aftermath of Nam! I'll be dam if I'll apoligize to you or anyone else for being born in AMERICA, nor do I want to pay for illegal immigrant's health care, when my 32 year-old daughter is having trouble getting her heart medicine!!!! She was born in the USA.I assume by your letter that your parents took the time to get their citzenship. Could that possible be the point we are making?? I also noticed your "saga" about your father sending MONEY to Orphanages in "MEXICO." What about the hunger here, you know the country your parents loved so much? Have the right-wingers convince you and your parents there is no poverty or hunger in America? I could care less if the comments that have been written here piss you off, but the bottom line is everything that has been written in this comment site is the truth. I guess we are just getting a little tired of being the "underdogs" in our own country. Ya know, the Country were we were "born", whether by "accident" or not. . .

Oh please, tell me more of the hardships and struggles you go through as a born American citizen. I lost two cousins in Vietnam, funny how those with Hispanic names, or that come from poor, rural areas, always seemed to draw the infantry positions. Almost none of what was posted above is the "Truth". It is xenophobia. You are frustrated by some circumstance in your life, and apparently need a class of people to blame for it. Why not Mexicans? And do not, for a minute, think that's not what this is about. It is about the poor, dirty, uneducated brown people that cross our borders, and suck off the Government tit. Sorry about your daughter, health care is a huge concern for us Democrats, but vilifying another race of people isn't the way to affect change. You can sell your rhetoric at the frat houses, or over at TownhallMeeting, but in here, it sounds pretty lame.

If I may add, the "time" taken to become a citizen in this country is a joke. It's an exploitative system that only benefits unscrupolis lawyers and bureaucrats. It is an almost impossible process, by design.

Bush's immigration proposal is a trojan horse- deliving cheap labor for three years to corporations and businesses and offerring little hope for ultimate citizenship to the people who desire legal status. His shamefaced election year stunt is not even a case of too little, too late. The following is from the Service Workers Union, a Dean supporter:

"Bush tells immigrants you have no right to earn citizenship but tells corporations you have the right to exploit workers, both American and immigrant," said Eliseo Medino, executive vice president of the Service Employees International Union. "Without an opportunity to earn full citizenship, 8 million immigrant workers and their families will be at the constant mercy of these unscrupulous employers."

I work for a community education center that provides citizenship classes and i.n.s. assistance to latinos and others in eastern Massachusetts. Many of the characterizations of recent immigrants I read in the posts above do not correspond to my experience. I will not comment on any of the racist or xenophobic sentiments expressed therein. I will say, in advance of an analysis by staff of the Act's impact upon our clients, that there remains much inconsistency in treatment among the various nationalities we try to help. This act does nothing that I can see to remedy these inconsistencies. Most important, it does nothing to help people attain American citizenship. It continues to mystify me that a child born in any of our states has intrinsic citizenship, which his parents may never attain.

Does anyone know if these temporary workers and their employers will pay into the social security system? For me this raises a couple of problems.

(1) If they do have to pay into social security, that is hardly fair considering that they will never be allowed to reap any benefits of the system as temporary workers.

(2) If they do not have to pay into social security, right there is a 7.65%(or more?) incentive to hire an imported worker over a citizen.

As I work in the construction trades, I know what sort of effect illegals have on wages and benefits, and somehow this situation needs to be addressed.

Adam, it does need to be addressed. But most illegals I know, that work in the trades, have bogus ss cards. The contractors are not going to investigate the validity of their documents. But it's not like they are paying these guys 5 an hour. Unskilled labor, (Job-site cleanup, carpenters asst, etc) pays around 8-10. Once a worker proves his value, he is taught more, and most of the contractors I know, pay these guys what they would pay anyone else. One of the problems is, it seems there is no glamour in the trades, and students in this country that show little academic prowess are seldom shown the trades as an alternative to getting a degree. Now, for the workers paying in and not ever recieving the ss benefits, again it's part of the system, and they accept that. There is no perfect solution.

Rick, if anyone sounds "angry & frustrated" it is you my man! Your cousin's were in infrantry?? SO was my only brother, the son of a divorced waitress! So get off your high horse. My ONLY brother was shot to death in the USA on returning out of his mind with grief from Nam. So I'm not interested in your "sob" story how you were "accidently" born in Mexico! In America we are not "greatful" to work for $3.oo an hour. Maybe that has something to do with your Parent's moving to the UNTIED STATES OF AMERICA. Speaking of me "picking on brown people", my son's best friend is from Mexico. I believe your on the wrong site. You belong on the "Republican site where they "preach" hate and racism!!

First let me say that I am a Democrat from MO.

This proposal from the president is absolutely ludicrous. It rewards law-breaking and it will depress wages for unskilled workers. Why are we creating a guest worker program when 9 million people are unemployed? And don't tell me that these are jobs that Americans won't do. Americans will do any job that pays them a living wage. Illegals have brought down wages throughout the U.S. for the most vulnerable of our citizens (the ones we as Democrats should be standing up for…not illegal aliens): African-Americans, recent LEGAL immigrants, and poor rural families. I'm certain that people would love the opportunity to work a good construction job, for example, that's now being held by an illegal alien.

Democrats, listen up! This is your chance! Bush is very vulnerable on this issue. Many "swing voters" and independents are outraged that he has proposed this. Stand up for the American worker and object to this insanity by Bush!

Apparently Patty, you can't read. I was born here. Nobody pays these people 3.00 an hour. Your son's best friend is from Mexico, are you aware of just how lame that sounds? Sorry about your brother, a casualty of an unjust war, much like we are in today. But that doesn't change the fact that you are ignorant, not only of the plight of these people, but of the history of this country, at least you can be comforted to know there are many like you. Misery loves company…

Also, please note that a recent Pew research poll showed that 74% of Democrats and Indpendents believe that illegal immigration needs to be better controlled and legal immigration needs to come to a slower pace.

I am a Democrat because I care about the most vulnerable Americans, and illegal immigration is driving them further into vulnerability. I know it's not the illegal immigrants' fault, and I truly feel sorry for their situation. But America cannot shoulder all their burden. What we should be doing is helping countries like Mexico on their own turf.

Also, has anyone been to our precious, fragile deserts in southern Arizona lately? They are literally being destroyed by foot traffic everyday from people crossing the border illegally.

I love being a Democrat, but please, let's be realistic: illegal aliens are not your constituents.

Hey Matthew, ever cheated on your taxes? Ever buy something on line and not pay the tax to your home state? (which is required by the way) Ever speed? Run a red light? The only law these people have broken is to come here without authorization. I'm aware that some commit crimes here, and I say they belong in jail, but the vast majority are fearful of being deported, so they are mindful of the law. Desperation drives them here. My parents were farm workers when they got here. Picked fruit in 100 degree weather. For pennies. And they worked. They saved, they pooled resources with others like them, and lo and behold, one generation later, employed people, sent kids to college, (where one went on to become a professor) and basically contributed to this country like most families seek to do. Yes, they were exploited. They were beaten by angry sailors, who believed they were a threat. Trust me, native born Americans do not want those jobs, it is "beneath" them. You have no idea what you are talking about, and it does not serve Dems to be on the wrong side of this issue. Get to know those you fear, and your life will be richer for it.

And so will our party…

Rick - The emotion of your arguments is understandably running high. I think all your issues are valid, but let's also look at the "colder" side of the matter. Look at what the USA Inc. is doing to workers, driving wages down with heavy handed negotiating tactics that destroy benefits, job security and working conditions; working to diminish worker safety/health/compensation rules; extorting our workers with threats (often carried out) that either productivity goes up or the jobs go to foreign lands. How much easier for the corporations to simply bring the foreign nations here and pay even worse wages to people with no collective power. I say any immigration policy must grant all foreign workers, illegal and legal, the absolute right to organize for their own benefit and simultaneous laws demanding all workers, American and otherwise, be treated with dignity and with a minimum wage increase of at least $3 per hour. If Bush can hold his panties a while longer before shipping all us democrats to the moon, we could use that moon money to perform a little progress right here on earth.

We managed to survive the Irish, the Italian, German, etc migration to America. Why do the doors close now? —Rick Casares

The new policy replaces standard doors with revolving doors. The Irish, Italians, Germans, and others arrived with a concrete path toward citizenship. This new policy does not allow illegal immigrants to become legal residents and then citizens. Rather, it is a guest worker policy, pure and simple. If an undocumented worker is injured on the job and becomes disabled, back he or she goes. More importantly, if an undocumented worker so much as whispers the word "union" in whatever language, it's bye-bye. Not necessarily deportation either; under the PATRIOT Act politically suspect noncitizens may simply disappear.

The story being put out is that the only jobs that the illegals are taking are the ones that no self-respecting American will do. They point out that all these people are just dishwashers and fruit pickers. Tell that to the construction workers that can't find jobs at a decent wage because the contractor will only hire illegals he can get for minimum wage or less. These are Americans that have spent years training to become proficient in their profession only to be replaced by cheap illegal labor. You may think that these American workers are uneducated and therefore not worthy of protection, but these people are the middle calss of this country.

Lou Dobbs did a particularly thoughtful job tonight in his interview of a national Chamber of Commerce person. But here's a quote from Dobb's CNN webpage. Just let this comment sink in for several minutes and get the breadth of it:

——————————

"There is no job that is America's God-given right anymore." -Carly Fiorina CEO, Hewlett-Packard

———————————— Perhaps G-d has spoken with Bush and shown him the way to fulfill this prophecy, what with the ever increasing unemployment and the anti-labor policies being cooked up day after day.

My story, my families and best friend's story which I reported to the city police and to my congressman (Republican, who tells me it's Clinton's fault and refers me to INS agent) to the INS agent responsible for citizen complaints of this magnitude all on record were heard and then told there was nothing they could do because the Bush administration would do nothing to help them with their responsibility.

This was the day I had to face the fact that an illegal alien's rights in a complaint where his felonious acts threatened the very safety of my family and the crime problem in the neighborhood where I could walk the streets safe as a 6 year old child. And there was no one who could protect me or my loved ones from his sociopathic joyride through George W. Bush's America.

As God as my witness, I will testify under sworn oath to the Immigration leaders themselves for you at the expense of my personal safety and reputation in front of a national television audience to facts which would horrify the people who grew up in an America where Homeland Security meant something totally differentI lived through the Civil Rights Movement, church bombings, and then finally a hometown which was compared to Mayberry…where my family, of immigrants who settled and became Americans on this land years less than 200 years ago. Deeded 500 acres by the President of the United States James Buchanan to begin their lives as American citizens not impoverished Irish exiles. Where my grandmother, raised by a Swiss immigrant born in passage across the Atlantic, built a home in 1927 which still stands and is my home…literally saved by President Roosevelt at the 11th hour…a literal testament to the New Deal.

If you want to put a face on the horrors of illegal immigration, it is waiting to hear from the Democratic Party.

Rick, I can't read? I beg to differ. Where did I mention that "you" were not born in the States?? My son's best friend George is Lame?? Why, because he is from Mexico?? Do you have any idea how you are speaking from "anger", and ZERO knowledge??? Did your parents become citizen's? Did they ever contribute to the children of "America??"

MPG, WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR POINT???

Patty, sigh, MY FATHER WAS ELECTED COUNCILMAN HERE IN THE STATES. WWII veteran. Yes, they became citizens. You are right, though, sweetie, I certainly now see that I am angry. I'm angry that you take your citizenship for granted. Wave your flag, dear, and buy into the rhetoric that keeps you afraid of the approaching brown horde…

Capt Bill Estes, why would I want to hire unskilled illegal workers who usually don't speak much english? If you think it's to save a few bucks a week on labor costs, you do not understand how contractors think. As I said, most contractors pay these guys good wages. If I am paying 8-10 dollars an hour for unskilled help cleaning up a job site, and can't keep American workers there, what does that tell you? Benefits, you say? None. I don't have any either. (except workman's comp)I am among those that feel it is not up to small employers to provide health benefits to my employees. Whatever plan I can afford does little to help defray the real costs of medical care, but that's another argument. Bottom line-Do not believe for a minute that Immigrant workers hurt American workers, they are not employed by the service industry, except as room attendents, dishwashers, busboys, and if lucky, kitchen help. Farm labor, hell, you can't find ANY Americans that want to do THAT. I could go on and on, but suffice to say, if the Repubs are agin it, let that be your first clue…

Rick- Yesterday the police set up a roadblock-a practice which I find abhorrant-and ticketed 400 vehicles in 4 hours. These were people with green cards. With your concern for Border issues I am sure you know about pregnant Mexicans who wait until they are ready to deliver to cross the bridge so their child will be an American Citizen. I'm not talking about poor Mexicans I'm talking about people who are not turned away at the Border…..We.re not talking about the residents of of the colonias(shanty-towns). They're having their babies in dirt floor cardboard shelters. Just regular old Mexicans who might just as well show up in a new Ford- 150. Now if that sounds xenophobic, you need to think more about where the money comes from to fund this service. Here in ElPaso it comes out of my pocket, and I'd rather have my sweat help needy Americans. I don't care if they're from Mexico or Ireland—we're here together to build something. Charity begins at home except in disfunctional families. I"m sure you consider yourself a liberal, and on this issue you are continuing to not address the issue of the unemployment in our society directly caused by this problem—it is NOT a dilemma—who will you help? I expect you help my mother or my children with your taxes. Whatever you do with your discretionary funds is up to you.

As long as I'm on a roll, my former partner got his Citizenship last year-he's from Mexico. He is not untypical-he's a fundamentalist-rightwing Republican. Just remember President Fox is a conservative and Mexico is a conservative country. —-and another thing; Mexicans join the US Armed Forces to fast track their citizenship-my partner's son for instance served in the Balkans. Do you realize 1/3 of the troops in Iraq are Spanish Speaking (non-citizens?).

I think I'm with you on this one, Gregg. It's not about the immigrants themselves and their variable characteristics, but about the current state of this nation and our attemp to slow the changes in national characteristics.

And BTW Rick, many American I know need farm work to supplement their income to stay out of poverty. It's a canard to say Americans won't do the work. I think the main issue their is employers do cheapness-shopping, the hell with the standard of living in this country. I have no ill will toward immigrants, but I have issues with huge populations floating over to depress our wages and then failing/refusing to assimilate. It may be that in a few more decades we'll have Mexico as an annex or the Mexican State of America; that would be fine with all the proper votes after careful constitutional consideration. But let's not delude ourselves into ignoring the nation-changing trends that are now occurring.A little more thought beyond how to get Latino votes is definitely in order, and how to improve the lives of foreign nationals is in order.

Rick- I am also a contractor. Don't pat yourself on the back because you pay your help 8-10/hr. We pay what the market demands of us. In 1977 my Carpenter Local #35 went on strike to get 13.32/hr + benefits. If I remember correctly the hod carriers & laborers made almost the same. So 25 years later EVERYTHING has gone up fourfold—-except construction wages?? So you are comfortable (and progressive) with that? Give it to me once again. you say 8 million illegals aren't a MAJOR factor in that condition? You and I both know it is. Don't muddle this situation with your social responsibility.

I believe dubya has wounded himself with this proposal.I think The Dems can hold his feet to the fire on this one. I don't agree with it, but I'd use it to defeat this Administration.

I have no problem with "fast-tracking" citizenship thru the armed service. But why oh why am I expected to care more for "Americans", than Mexicans, or Canadians, or Cubans? Borders are temporary, and arbitrary. If I happened on anaccident on or near the border, would I prioritize medical attention based upon citizenship status? As for mothers "leaping" into this country after dilating 8 centimeters, I presume, to have their children born here, I say, so what? IF YOU WERE BORN INTO THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES, YOUR SURVIVAL INSTINCT WOULD HAVE YOU DOING THE SAME. The Mexican Govt is rife with corruption, designed to benefit a small number of politically connected families.(sound familiar?) I blame the church for suppressing education that might help curb the endless population boom there. But until that is addressed, be prepared to continue to see people coming here to take advantage of all that you take for granted.

Gregg, I don't pat myself on the back, it's a business decision. I don't make as much once all is said and done, but I get my projects done on time, on budget, in part because I have a reliable work force that's there when I need it. It's really a question of work ethic. Believe me, I'm not touting the plan Shrub put forth this wek, and think it is flawed, and ultimately window dressing. It is this arrogant belief that because we were born here, we have the right to work more than someone else, it's preposterous.

Rick - Your soap box is getting a little rickety, my friend. Go have an iced latte and breathe. We'll be here when you return from your trek down that slippery slope.

In fact, because we were born here we DO have the American right to see our laws properly enacted and enforced. Changes will have to come legally, not by presidential fiat that easily foreseeably sent out the world wide message that BUSH WANTS US ALL TO COME TO AMERICA RIGHT NOW. Who wouldn't jump on the mule or the ship or into the Mercedes 500 to answer that false clarion call? We need control over who and how many people enter this nation. Period. Laws first, US economy/employment standards improvement second, invitations to foreigners third. Then the cylce begins again.

Mando, not sure what you mean, exactly. Do you want to compare slippery slopes? Mando, I have always treated your responses with the respect due, because you are a thoughtful person. Sarcasm with me is unjustified, we have been on this blog together a long time. Disagree, state your case. Going for the cheap laugh is beneath you.

From the master of sarcasm? Please.

Bush recently made a statement that said "Out of common sense and fairness,our laws should allow willing workers to enter our country and fill jobs that Americans are not filling." The only reason Americans arent filling them is because ALL the jobs are taken by immigrants!! Us Americans dont have a chance at getting the jobs when the employers can hire immigrants to do the work for less pay. Some of us AMERICANS would be filling the jobs if we had a chance to get hired! I for one would LOVE to have a job right now! but It seems here in AMERICA the Americans are becoming a minority because we are letting the immigrants take over our country. i dont have a problem with these people, but this is AMERICA. & OUR PEOPLE deserve to get to work in OUR country too! What happened to the Americans rights? And for OUR president to make such a statement is ludacris! I thought he was an AMERICAN. An American would NOT take jobs away from his own people. Where is the fairness in taking jobs away from Americans to give them to illegal immigrants?? How is it common sense, to let your own people starve to death so the illegal immigrants can feed their families? I think Mr Bush needs to think about the statement he made. And he needs to think about what he is doing to his people & what he isnt doing for them too. Our country is falling apart thanks to that man. Our economy has went right down the toilet since he got into office. The unemployment rates are back up thanks to him & his little plans & policies. Our people are being deprived of the things they need & deserve. The AMERICANS are being NEGLECTED due to Bush's actions! He is suppose to be OUR president. Hes suppose to be for & help OUR people! The President needs to think about & better his own people before going & helping everyone else! but hes been so wrapped up in helping everyone else, the AMERICANS are being Neglected. disrespected, & Starved!

Mando, you know me. I do not start with sarcasm, and I cannot remember ever pointing it at you. I love a spirited debate, and I have been on the other side of the aisle with you before, and we managed to remain civil. If you wish to alter that relationship, theres little I can do.

Rick - Of course I don't want to have an uncivil blog relationship with you. You are one of the finest contributors here. However, you do dish it out to me and others and I for one take it as good natured corrections in my own attitudinal postings. Suggest you see me as a friend who means no harm, and do the same. Ok?

Mando, fair enough, but for me, this particular issue isn't intellectual posturing. I know this issue from experience, a lifetime of it.

Rick 9:23 So our army *hessians*-or a Foreign Legion. The problem I have with that is known as "why don't you and him fight, I'll hold your coat". Reinstate the draft with no deferrments and send *that*to Laura and George.

My employees are 100% Mexican or first generation Citizens. I know what I'm talking about. I know about the local work ethic. I was a licensed contractor in Northern California and had an Anglo workforce. I know what it WAS like and I know how it is now. Here a man can work for me for 3-4 months and just not show up someday. There is truly a cultural difference. For instance, how many generations did it take for Europeans and Asians to understand that English is the common tongue?

Re:9:29 EXACTLY- it's a business decision. Where did the money go and where is it going? DuPont doesn't get less—Lousiana-Pacific doesn't get less-land speculators get less. You and I are driven by the economic tides, and 8 million more workers dumps a lot of direction into that tide. I KNOW you would pay your crews 20/hr w/benefits if you could still be competitive. My position is take the surplus of (ILLEGAL) workers out of the labor pool. I never really wanted to have multiple crews..it's not my dream. Carpenters here make 10/hr-period. With a good reputation and 32 years in the business & 9 employees I can make about as much as a good engineer after five years. My point is all the tradesmen become contractors and look for multiple bodies to skim a little for their families. As long as the workforce is illegaly and artificially held in constant surplus, wages will continue down. It's an equation—simple and irrefutable.

correction: land speculators DON'T get less

Gregg, well said, and I appreciate the perspective. But this flood of "cheap labor" wasn't some scheme concocted by Corporations in some smoke filled room. They come here to work. I admit that there are areas where American workers get displaced as a result, and I am willing to look at potetial solutions. But, it's this notion that all they want is free medical care and food stamps that I fight all too often. Tha's been the driving force behind my tirades.

Rick- It IS a dynamic concocted by persons and entities other than you and me. I live on the border. This problem can be stopped in a heartbeat. Yesterday a couple of veteran Boder Patrol Officers were sentenced to 3 years for smuggling Hondurans into the Country. I'd call that a slap-on-the-wrist. Of course they lost their job too! I'm not postulating a gov't conspiracy- it's treated with a wink. I'll try again-Send manufacturing abroad, except of course sensitive Defense related contractors such as the Republican machine shop owner who turns out washers for $5/ea.-send telecom services abroad-send accounting abroad-have I forgotten anybody? Oh yea send software developement abroad. Now we have a robust and willing workforce to fuel the American Economic Engine——-EXCEPT this AEE left the station and everybody is waving hankies at the smoke. Here we have millions of semi-skilled Citizens looking for what we euphemistically call service sector jobs. And those greedy peasants still want to make 12/hr—We can fix that we'll pit the peasants against the compasinos—brilliant!

I tried to read the conversations taking place here, however, it is just too much of the same old-same old..If there were nine people here I would think it was our nine Democratic canditates fussing and not being able to agree on anything. Is it possible to agree and not have further discussion that being here illegally is not the same as "coming to this country many years ago" or not the same as "standing in line to come to this country and not starting out as a criminal…illegally"?

Ok, Gregg, I'm about done here. I'm not addressing the issue of manipulation and exploitation of workers in either country. What sets me off is the mindset of some Americans that the immigrants are all seeking subsidised lifestyles. We can find solutions, but not if we don't change the rhetoric. I wish you well in your future business endeavors…

Mr. President It is clear that you are looking for the spanish vote for the November election, but what about the other imigrant that help buit this nation, should they be included in that package, for example the "Haitians". Remember us in 1776 when we help the USA in their final war. I also hope that you will prevent the Haitians from invading the shores of Miami by removing Jean Bertrand Aristide from power just like you did for the Iraki people, our students have been killed simply for demanding that bucher called Aristide be removed from office. Haiti became a killing field…once again if you are going to do it for the spanish migrant, the others deserved the same treatment…. Thank you Yolene

This is all part of the grand right-wing design. They want a feudal system where workers are just indentured servants or slaves. Where's the plan for health care for these illegal immigrant workers? Who will pay for that? I work hard. Too much of my pay goes to taxes. It's hard to make ends meet, get ahead, save for retirement. They can take my job and give it to an illegal immigrant. I want to move to one of those countries in Europe where they have universal health care, month-long vacations, two-hour lunch breaks, pension plans, and workers are treated like human beings, not workhorses. They have decent public education (including college), public transportation (trains!) and all the taxes don't go the military-defense budget. They don't like WalMart and don't allow religious fanatics and cults to run their government. Why is it not UN-patriotic for these greedy corporations to import jobs oversees? Why are we fighting a war against terrorists who want (in Bush's words) to destroy our way of life? In fact our way of life is being destroyed by Bush and company.

Our way of life all depends upon the speed of the worker productivity treadmill, doesn't it divided by the rapid destruction of workers' rights, beginning with the right to freely organize, doesn't it?

yes MrBush is doing this for the Hispanic Vote.. And thats the only reason.. When he should be doing what is right for The AMERICAN people.(in American people I mean, The people of this nation! The ones who have legal rights to work here!) This isnt a popularity race, its the HEAD of our NATION! Its what is right for our NATION & PEOPLE!

Present? Yeah, right. This is like the department store that raises prices 60% one week, and then a few weeks later has a 10% off sale.

This present, like many others that are likely to rain down, are nothing but election-year politics. It's time to look softer, gentler, and unfurl those 1,000 points of lights again - rusted.. many burned out.. frayed cord.. probably will pop a circuit breaker anyway, but good for more press that makes them look less like war-mongering, fear-inducing, constitution-shredding idiots.

Lower the "threat" level, too.

The scum that make up this mal-administration are following a nice script - one that ends in November of this year.

We Democrats would do well to take this advice: "get your script together", before it's too late.

Mark - Excellent analogy to the department store price hikes followed by "sales".

"And for OUR president to make such a statement is ludacris! I thought he was an AMERICAN."

He's a businessman first, an American second…don't EVER forget that!

Can somebody please help me understand how the following two positions of the Democratic party are not COMPLETELY hypocritical?

1. We must protect American workers by stemming the tide of corporations moving jobs overseas and, hence, replacing American workers with foreign workers.

2. We must have policies that encourage foreign workers to come to America illegally (such as amnesty for illegals, etc.) and, hence, replace American workers with foreign workers.

And as for the bogus "illegal immigrants do the jobs Americans don't want to do" argument, let's investigate this further…What's a job that today most Americans would want to do? How about professional football player? Can we all agree that - if given the opportunity - most Americans (American men, at least) would like to play for the New England Patriots? Alright. Now let's say that the N.F.L. announces that starting next season all players will be payed $5.15/hr. How many of them do you think would show up? How many native-born Americans do you think would be lining up to fill those roster spots (if you answer that many would I'll know that you've never played football on a high level)? My guess is that we'd all be cheering on guys named Alberto Sanchez and Pablo Rodriguez. Would this phenomenon be the result of a sudden change in the job duties of a professional football player? Or would it be due to the fact that no native-born American is desperate enough to endure the physical punishment that a professional football player experiences for $5.15/hr.? I would argue the latter.

"He's a businessman first, an American second…don't EVER forget that!"

Yes you are correct.. And by letting his business get in the way of his head, he has forgotten about the American people & our country. He is destroying our country, that is what he is doing. He hasnt done anything for the American people! Its all been about HIM & other countries! He is the President of the United States of America. So he needs to take care of the United States of America & the people here in it first!

Republicans AND Democrats should stop fishing for new immigrant support and votes for their respective agendas and focus their efforts on the sustainability of the economy and the ecology that 300 million Americans are attempting to share today. Unfettered population growth, aggravated by a dysfunctional immigration policy, is the true long term threat to our national security and to the high standard of living that we take for granted.

I do agree with you Daniel!

Everyone in this blog (punches aside) is showing how complex an issue this really is… no one single person is hitting a solution on the head, because personal perspectives differ- the best policy depends on "who benefits," and if it's you, or not.

The BEST solution will benefit both sides of the border… and Dubya's solution ain't it.

In the big picture, this is Rove's slight of hand in action. This is Bait and Switch, Mr. Rove will declare the "issue" and frame the debate, and because Americans DO CARE, our first instinct is to jump into the fray.

This Blog sounds like our Democratic Hopefuls campaigns. Immigration isn't any more important in 2004 than it was in 2003, until Dubya said it was. Is immigration the REAL issue, or is it really the issue of NAFTA fallout? Is it labor? Or proof of the millions of lost jobs under Dubya?

Fight like hell- but know the enemy… and address the root of the issues. We have waited for 2004- it's here- and immigration isn't the issue. Dubya's failed presidency is the issue.

To clarify the statement I made about the "Democratic ratic Hopeful's campaigns:" Character assassination is the Republican's specialty, but it seems Democrats are only too willing to take over where R's leave off.

On CNN the other night they had a Contractor state "I only hire illegals to work on my projects because they're the only ones that will work for the $8 an hour I pay". They wouldn't give his name, but mentioned the Atlanta area, and showed the $400,000 houses he was building. Said if he paid the prevailing wage it could raise the price of the houses by $10,000. Now, he is using these illegals for all phases of construction, not just sweeping up, while American workers in his area look for jobs.

Personally if I was buying one of those houses I'd be very worried about the workmanship.

The real issue in all this isn't immigration, it's LIVING WAGE JOBS!! Bush's proposal will gut the remainder of America's middle class by opening the door to America's best jobs to every one from every country, at the same time that his minions use the WTO to keep wages down in foreign countries. American companies have been giving our best jobs to foreigners on H1B visas for years, claiming that nobody wanted the jobs. The truth is that nobody wanted the jobs at 50% below the prevailing American wage rates!!

Barry, there's a brand new issue, handed to us by the Flubber administration. Perfect!

"President's immigration policy to further erode job opportunities for American citizens."

Shrub's P-R plan could totally backfire if given the proper emphasis.

Where are our Democratic leaders on this? What are they saying?

"Where are our Democratic leaders on this? What are they saying?"

They're busy complaining that Dubya's plan doesn't give away ENOUGH of the farm (by granting illegals amnesty)! Gee…I wonder why the Democratic establishment has lost control of its party.